jeff wrote: In particular the fellow was saying that they had replaced/reworked the reedplates for the SP20's and GM..which are the same BTW. He went on into saying how they weren't advertising this. Just letting it do it's course.
The reeds are the same but the reed plates are different. Made of the same material and all but they are stamped differently for the difference in the combs.
Jeff as stated several times in this thread, thats what its all about my friend. ~~"Personal Choice"~~ Thats why its so hard a question to answer when someone asks "which harp". It all comes down to what one feels good playing. If you do not like the harp your playing you'll not play it as good as you could. On the other hand if you do like the harp, you'll try your best to sound good. There is no "right" or "wrong" harps. Or "good" or "bad" harps. Just ones we like or dislike.
I garantold ja weather your on a stage in front of 100's of people or just sitting around the campfire with friends & family, the ears that hear your music cannot tell which model harp your playing. They can hear good playing or bad playing, but cannot tell the difference between the harps. Charlie McCoy proved this one time when he played a bunch of different harps from the so called "cheap junk" (including a couple of 50 cent harps) to the so called "best money can buy" harps. And no one could tell the difference.
Good luck in your search for your MP3's. Remember this, the harmonica takes "Ten" Days" to learn to play. And "Ten Years" to master. The seacret to success is Practice, Practice, and Practice some more.
So far I have to say the GM is a pretty nice harp. I find it hard to pick which one will come to work with me for the day...the SP20 or the GM...lol. I'm still leaning towards the SP20...though I think this might have something to do with this being my first harp. Kinda got used to the feel and all.. you know? Now I need some more music to listen too. Try to get that feel for the blues, and copy along as best I can. Constantly searching the internet for mp3 and the like.
I find my GM reeds are heavier built than the S20 ones. I have a hard time deciding which I prefer - seems to depend on my mood or something. I have a bit more trouble with bent notes on the GM, I think.
In my opinion the GM is a lot louder, if you tend to blow hard enough to notice. I like it for acoustic playing because of that.
I know the tuning is different - the GM is truer for single note playing while the S20 is tuned to sound good in chords. The difference is only a few cents on the tuner and after a while none of my harps are the same as new, so I don't think that aspect is very important.
The GM does not fit on a harp rack (unless there is one designed for it??) for playing along with guitar.
Paul being that I have a full beard and mustache I understand just what your saying. I have a couple of Delta Frosts and have not had that problem yet. Come to think about it it happens very seldom on my Spc.20. The best harp I have found for that is the Golden Melody's but then I hate that damn reed plate sticking out in the front.
The strangest thing about that is, it never used to bother me before they started recessing reedplates into plastic combs.........LOL
About the turbolids, I got myself one. They are OK I but I just dont care for them. A personal thing I guess.
bear wrote: Hay Paul, I courious as to what it is you do not like about the Spc20 covers?
Well, it probobly just a personal preference. I think the harps that have covers that go from end of comb to end of comb are more comfortable to hold and catch on my mustache less. I have yet to try a DF, they might be different because their covers a pressed and do not have the small gaps that most conventional harps have on each end.
About Suzuki making the Delta Frost's, we had a big todo about this at HarmonicaClub.com so one day I had John Hall (the owner of Bushman) on the phone and asked him if Suzuki made the DF. He told me that he ordered the plastic boxes it comes in from the same company that makes the boxes for Suzuki. But the harp itself was made (at the present time) in three different factories, and assembled in a fourth. He would not say which factories but he did say Suzuki did not make them.
Mr. Hall did not say so himself, but I believe that the reason he would not tell me the companies that are making his harps for him is because he is trying to start his own factory in the USA to build his own harps, and he does not want the world getting set on the idea that the Bushman is made by some one else. That would be a hard reputation to get over.
I think Susuki makes the harps for Bushman, the delta has phosfous reeds,(SP) ,i still prefer the bluesmaster or delta over all other harps. Check ot the new Susuki Harpmaster,not as nice as the Bluesmaster ,but sames as delta without the phosphous reeds. Paul:smile:
That would be a great thing if the reed plates were interchangable between the Golden Melody and the SP20. I would love to have a GM with SP20 reed plates.
I do not care for the conventional cover plates on teh SP20, although I have recently read that the Promaster cover plates fit a SP20. If that is true of the bluesmaster too I might be interested in getting one and swapping the cover plates.
Jeff, I was not about to shoot cha my friend..........LOL And its possible that Hohner is using the same reed plates for both harps now as my harps are a couple of years old. Except for the Spc.20 its only a few months old.
There is a rumor going around that Hohner is going to start offering replacement reedplates for the Spc.20's so maybe they did redo them............
I'll have to take mine apart and get back to ya. But don't shoot the messenger! I'm just passing on what I've been told. While I'm at it, I'll see if I can find that artilce again and give ya a link.
jeff wrote: Well anyway in the one of the article's the writer had interviewed one of the manager's for Hohner. Somebody that Hohner had invited to their location. I guess he was part of the quality control. To make a long and partaily(sp?) forgetable story short...their has been work done at Hohner to make them be what they once were....top notch! Well top notch for mass production I guess. In particular the fellow was saying that they had replaced/reworked the reedplates for the SP20's and GM..which are the same BTW.
The reed plates for the Special 20 and the Golden Melody are the same:confused: Maybe its because I have older models or something but I just took a Golden Melody and a Special 20 apart and I'm here to tell you there is a lot of differances between the two reed plates. Different size reed plates, different hole sizes, the Golden Melody has a groove in the front of the reedplate for the covers to fit into, the Spc20 does not. I could name several other differences but it sure not the same reed plates..............
Harpfish I hear ya man. I to love the Spc.20 harp, but prefer the Delta Frost myself. I'll explane why. First off about that sustained sound you mention, there is a definate twangy sound after one quites playing a note. The reed keeps on playing after you stop. More so on the lower keyed harps then say a C and above. I can hear it when I'm playing but my wife says she cannot. Anyway the reason I like the DF is I have emphysema real bad and have use of less then half of my lungs so playing something that requires me to blow/draw air in and out of it is tricky. I can notice a big differance between one that requires a lot of air (like Bushman's Souls Voice) and one that dose not (like Bushman's Delta Frost). I can play the Spc. 20's ok but the Delta Frost does require a lot less air to play then a Spc.20. Plus I really like the Delta Frost's stainless steel cover plates that slide in my mouth easier then a harp that has crome plated covers.
But then again like I said before, this all works for me. The Spc.20's work for you. Thats what its all about my friend. I'd sure hate to live in a world where everybody liked the same things. How would we ever learn from each other?
I've tried a number of harps and, frankly, I prefer the Special 20.
I've got a couple of Delta Frosts in different keys. They are very flexible and get what I would characterize as a reedy sound. I think this is probably best for old time acoustic playing, sort of like a resonatoter guitar. The DF tends to sustain the tone beyond the air flow in sort of an after-twang, and some people don't like that. I've also found that my DFs tend to "clog" easily and some holes just plain stop playing. Perhaps I slobber too much, but if so, that's how it is, and I hate having a harp that won't play the note.
I also have a few Hering Vintage 1923's. I like the just tuning, which I think sounds better (more in tune) when playing octaves and chords, and they have a strong, brassy sound. Still, I don't like the tone as well, nor do I like the exposed reed plate, nor do I like the odd metallic taste.
I have one Lee Oskar, and it is definitely a well-crafted instrument. It has relatively large holes, responds fairly well, but has a tone that I find to be overly bright.
So, back to the Sp 20. I try a lot of things, but keep coming back to this harp. It has a combination of qualities that make it easy to bend, clear yet capable of getting a funky sound, sturdy, and reliable. Other harps may have one attribute that set them apart from the competition, but I think the Sp 20 has the best overall combination of tone, flexibility, tuning, feel, consistency, and reliability. I'm always open to something new, but haven't found anything that for me overall beats the Special 20.
Paul Johnson wrote: Hey Jeff, I hope you give the Suzuki Bluesmaster a try, afterall they make the Delta frost,they dont need valves,anyway have fun.:smile:
I am confused, Suzuki makes the Dellta Frost? I thought it was Bushman? Nothing against the BluesMaster. I have one and I love it and would highly recommend them.
Is the Delta Frost worth the $10 more than a Special20?
I am not a big fan of the "conventional" cover plates. I prefer the end to end plates that Suzuki or even Huang uses. I am thinking about trying the TurboLids on a SP20, not sure if they fit a Delta Frost.
Well said...both of you! Some very true important things in this thread to take to heart. on a side note....The GM is a nice harp for sure. But I must confess that my SP20 is the bee's knee's....i love her! Nice to hold, and very responsive...even on the high notes. With that said I might just do some foolin around here and try to valve the GM. I know I have some acetate film around here some where, from when I used to do cartoons.
I'm still gonna pick up the DF though. Friday when I get paid, I'll send out my order for maybe 2 of them, with xtra plates.
Well I guess it's time to practise. I bring Jon's cd with me everyday at work. Since I'm always stuck in some kind of traffic jam all day, I have the cd going, a harp in hand, and a steering wheel in the other...lol. Don't worry...I'm a professional...driver that is.
jbone, I think you missunderstood what I was saying my friend. I never ment to say that playing one way or the other is right or wrong. I have a friend that plays some fantastic down and dirty blues style music. Blows out harps on a weely basis. He buys Special 20's and Lee Oskars by the bag full just so he can have extra harps on hand when he does a gig. I know of times he has blown 3 or 4 harps in one night. Is his style of playing wrong? No! Its his style, it works for him. And if he is willing to lay out the extra $$ so he can play that way, more power to him. We was talking about this very thing one day, and he picked out a Special 20 and set it aside to play it like I do. He played it for about a year just to show me he could.
But your right about one thing though. Its all about wind control. I know of a few people who used to blow out harps on a weekly basis. As they got better control of the wind force they was using their harps started lasting longer. Same style of playing, same sound (maybe even better), but a little better control and their harps lasted longer.
The point to playing a harp is to make oneself happy. Not right or wrong, just happy. If it works for you, and your happy with what your doing. Blow your brains out...............LOL
the golden melody is tuned a bit differently than say a sp20. "country tuned" i believe. i used to have a couple but opted for sp20's for some years after that. the df is fairly specific for draw playing, second, third, and beyond. not that it isn't a great first position harp, but john designed it to play blues. everyone drives a car differently, andwho's to say what's right or wrong? as long as we don't run each other off the road what can be the harm? as follows with harp. my style has evolved over many years. i play blues in second and third position mostly, i also do some first position stuff ala jimmy reed, on the high end of a harp in A or Bb. yes, i blow a reed out here and there. but also yes, i make music that's attractive and fulfilling. the delta frost has proven to be the most durable harp i've yet found for the style i play. as for availability, i have settled many times for a harp i didn't want, because i needed that key in my case for a gig that night. to me it makes much better sense to work toward a full case of df's with spare reed plates for each one. slowly i am moving in that direction. meantime i keep working on wind control so as to keep my harps alive and working well. nothing blows out a reed like too much force! i have seen a player use a johnson $5 harp to make things happen that i could just not believe. the life of those harps is necessarily shorter since they are built of cheaper materials, but even so, i feel like ANY harp can be made to excell if it's treated right. my case holds a johnson, some df's, a sp20, some big rivers, a mb, a blues harp, and a suzuki promaster. all get some use, some get a lot of use.
wind control, and getting used to a particular harp, are what's important. if you don't like the GM why not play mad scientist and see if you can mod the covers to take care of that reed plate issue? a small round file may solve the problem.
we're playing in terrell texas saturday night and i'll be there with my motley case of harps. we'll do 3 long sets and have a great time doing what we love. my harps will work for me. isn't that what's important?
jeff wrote: i've read just about all the review's I could find on the net, and most agree that it's a great harp, but it has a short life span. However again alot of people like the GM and I havn't read one complaint about the life span on this harp....strange!
I'm about to open a can of worms here as to the life span of a harp. But her is my take on the subject. The life spans of a harmonica depends mostly on how you play them. If you play a lot of 2nd position (crossharp, bending notes) and play it "loud and proud" a harps only going to last a few weeks at best. If you play 1st. position (melodies) and play the harp the way it was designed to be played it will last you for years.
I know of people who have blown out a Special 20 in just a few days. On the other hand I also know a few more seasoned players who have learned to bend notes correctly and their harps last them for several months. My stepfather played a harp all his life, (straight harp melody type playing) right up until the day he crossed over the Jordan. He had several Marine Bands (same thing as a Special 20, except with a wooden comb) that was 40 or 50 years old and still played good. My Golden Melody, which still plays good is now about 30 years old. But then I'm not into playing bent notes.
Its just like anything else, example: "How long does a car last?" If you put it on a race track and shove it past what it was designed to do its only going to last a short time. Drive like your supposed to it will last for years. Same difference.
I've got mine over 2 years and they are still as good as new, maybe even better than when I bought them. Like I mentioned before, I can't play them for a long time, but I do play them often. :biggrin:
well to tell you the truth guys..I went and jumped the gun as you say. When I finished work yesterday I went to my local dealer and picked up a GM in C. I wanted the C because most of the practise stuff I find on the net and in my book from Jon Gindick is also all stuff for the key of C. That and I would be able to compare it to my SP20...which is a C. But have no fear...one day I will pick a DF. On a diffrent note... Has anybody ever caught some of the article's on Harmony Central....I think thats the name? Well anyway in the one of the article's the writer had interviewed one of the manager's for Hohner. Somebody that Hohner had invited to their location. I guess he was part of the quality control. To make a long and partaily(sp?) forgetable story short...their has been work done at Hohner to make them be what they once were....top notch! Well top notch for mass production I guess. In particular the fellow was saying that they had replaced/reworked the reedplates for the SP20's and GM..which are the same BTW. He went on into saying how they weren't advertising this. Just letting it do it's course. So I have no idea just how old this info is. I'm just bringing it up. Something to talk about, or at least think about. i've read just about all the review's I could find on the net, and most agree that it's a great harp, but it has a short life span. However again alot of people like the GM and I havn't read one complaint about the life span on this harp....strange!
DutchBones this is something that really puzzels me about the Golden Melody and Hohners thinking. I cannot understand why they would recess the reed plate into the plastic comb and then let it stick out in the front. I believe if it was recessed on all four sides they would sell a lot more of them. I for one would have a full set.
I'll tell you something else that puzzels me. Before harmonica companies started using plastic combs (found only on the cheap 50¢ harps) there was no such thing as a resessed reed plate. They all stuck out in front and no one complained! Including me........LOL Now I cannot stand playing harps with wooden combs. I do because I have some older Marine Bands but I'd rather play something with a plastic comb (and recessed reed plates).
harpinjames wrote: I recently got a couple of the Delta Frosts, and I'll have to jump on the bandwagon....I've played through a number of different harps, and these are without a doubt the best out-of-the-box harps I've ever played....wooohooo!!!
At the risk of sounding like a Bushman sales person (which I'm not) I'd like to add that I have herd a lot of people make statements just like the one above. I have a friend of mine who has been playing (professionally) and teaching the harp for over 35 years now. I told him about the Bushman and he said that he has tried every type/brand/model of harp you can think of and he has found his favorits. He played LO's and nothink else. Said he tried the Bushman Souls Voice and considered them junk, unplayable, a wast of money. After me hounding him for about a year he finely bought a Delta Frost. And now all he plays is the Bushman Delta Frost harps............LOL
I recently got a couple of the Delta Frosts, and I'll have to jump on the bandwagon....I've played through a number of different harps, and these are without a doubt the best out-of-the-box harps I've ever played....wooohooo!!!
I've got 2 GM's (A, Bb) and I love the sound, feel and playability. The only problem is that the outsticking reed plates make it impossible for me to play them for more than 10 minutes at the time.... I don't know if it's a kind of allergy, but they leave a funky taste and feeling at the inside of my lips... It's really a pity, cause they are great little harps. :bleh:
I second that about the reed plate, get that sucker back out of the way and i would be tempted to try a Golden Melody. I've heard they have a nice sound and the rounded corners seem like a good idea. So far the sp20 is the harp of choice for me - jawbone
Jeff you can put your mind at ease about the Bushman Delta Frost, they will not put out a second rate harp just to fill orders. Thats one of the reasons that some places are out of them. Along with Bushman being a new company and just getting their harps out on the market. If you ever buy a Bushman thats not right John Hall the owner of Bushman will replace it free of charge.
Anyway Mr. McBride said it right. If your happy with the Special 20's stick with them untill you learn the ins & outs first. That is if you can. I'm not sure what harmonica players enjoy most buying/collecting harps or playing them.
Oh ya, you asked about the Golden Melody's, good harps. Most anything Hohner puts out is good. I have a Golden Melody and I love the looks, love the feel, love the way it plays. Hate that damn reed plate sticking out in the front so that it rubs on your tongue and lips.
The Bushan's are fantastic and I love them. But they are expensive, about $25, and hard to get.
My advice to you is that if you like the SP20 just stick with it for now while you're learning. They are nice playing, you like them, and they are inexpensive, about $18. You can afford more of them in different keys and they are a very nice harp.
You'll learn just as fast with the SP20's and then you can try other things later. Focus on the playing right now, not the gear.
Thx guys.. Funny I thought the L.O. would have made all the diffrence. Perhaps even the last harp I buy for alittle while...5-6 months maybe. But the thing has a major problem with air leakage. I'm going to match it with my tuner just to see what notes I'm getting out of it. Maybe the reeds are bit off?
Is their any place on the web that goes through modifying, and repairs of harps? Perhaps something that will teach me. I'm the type of fellow who likes to mess around with stuff like that. Kinda like a Joe Falisko in the closet :)
Before I forget. I'd like to express afew concerns about Bushman. I've been in contact with 3 diffrent store's so far talking to the folks behind the counter/phone, and so far they've all made mention of having abit of trouble with order's from Bushman. Not that the order's are not being filled, just that Bushamn is out...of this or that. At The Harp Depot forum it was also mentioned that the DF in Bb and F keys will not be around till aug. of 2006. Something to do with the factory is what I recall. Now I am by-no-means suggesting that Bushamn doesn't have their act together. Not after all the great reviews. But something like this could possibly have some sort of negative effect on the over quality of the instrument in the end...no? What I'm really saying is...i'd hate to purchase an instrument that I like, only to find later on it might be hard to find replacement goods for it. maybe i'm just reading into it to much. BTW...what do you guys think of the Golden melody? This one also gets high marks. Love the shape! Sweetest looking one on the market I think, other then those all metel one's.
the lee oskars are tuned brighter than i like, otherwise i did find them to be a well made harp. a note on the big river harp: while they are a bit bigger than their forebears, i find them to be actually a good harp for a little less $$. i use a couple of these harps live also. more for third position than second. when i first got one, i felt like they were a sort of cheaper imitation of the lee oskar, but as i played them for a while, found i liked them pretty well.
over all though, once you get some df's in your case you find that reedplates are very cheap to replace- about $10 each, and usually i blow out a draw reed so i usually buy one draw plate per harp. the description of the df says something about "dark undertones", which i must say are there when i play. the durability of the reeds themselves have really won me over. all in all, for less than a lee oskar, you can be playing a better harp IMHO.
Jeff I to will have to agree with the others on the Bushman Delta Frost. But let me say this my friend, if you do decide to get a Bushman harp make sure its the Delta Frost and not the Souls Voice which is not a good harp. Even John Hall the owner of Bushman Music will tell you to stay away from the Souls Voice.
Which brings me to the Lee Oskars, me thinks you tried the wrong model (or got a bad one). LO's are fantastic harps my friend.
I would have to go along with the Delta Frosts. I started out on Big rivers, then to MS Blues harp, i also have tryed marine bands and SP 20s. I would have to rank DF as #1, SP 20's and marine bands after that.
Delta Fs are nice right out of the box they come in.
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i agree, the df is my choice also. BUT- within reason, most harps can be made to sound right and good. i even have a $5 johnson i use on certain songs.
my finances dictate how many harps i can get at a time, usually 1 or 2. something i had to learn some time ago was how to not blow a reed out. finding my air column and playing with less force yet a tighter seal between my mouth and the harp has helped tremendously.
different brands are made a bit differently. each has its quirks one has to get used to. one question i have about that lee oskar- have you made sure the reedplate screws are tight and the reed plates are seated in the comb well? are the covers tight? i personally don't like LO's, but i have owned a few and they can be made to sound out nicely. i know guys who use them exclusively.
i know the hering vintage 1923 is a good and well-built harp, but i have had to go in and check all the screws for tightness right out of the box sometimes. it's not a big deal and can make all the difference.
i'd have to ask also: is your embouchere making a good seal to that LO? these harps are tuned brighter and may take a little more breakin before they loosen up some.
for ease of playing and consistent good quality though, my choice is the delta frost. i can get one out of the mailbox and after a very short checkout time i can be gigging with it.
Hi Jeff,You will get a bunch of replies about this subject,so here is mine. Start out with a Bushman Delta C and then get a Suzuki Bluesmaster C. Then later on add a few more keys. I have spent a lot of money on Other brands and now these are the only 2 i need. I do have them both in other keys and i do have a Suzuki pro-master valved. Good luck, Paul:smile:
i fell in love with this instrument about 3 weeks ago, and I must say that within that time I would say that my progress is pretty good. Considering I've played guitar for years and it took me years to get anywhere.
Well anyway, I have some ?'s on choosing my next harmonica. At the moment I'm playing a Hohner SP 20. Normally I try to do some research on what I plan on purchasing just so I can get the best I can with my money. With 3 kids, a wife and only one paycheck a week, I have to do these things....anybody relate?
Well about a week ago, and after reading so many good article's from others about L.O. harps, I'd thought I would give one a shot. So off to the store I went. When I came home and really started to see what all the hype was about, I have to say that I was disapointed. Compared to my SP20, this thing takes an incrediable amount of air to get those reeds going, and at the same time it sounds like a tire that sprung an air leak. In fact I think you can here me blowing/drawing air just as much as you can hear the sound of the harp. Now my SP20 on the other hand is very sensative(sp?). The slightest blow/draw sends those reeds screaming! Bending as pretty easy as well. No-way can you hear my breath. Plus it's a better fit in my mouth. The L.O. is somewhat bigger when viewed from the side profile. I think the larger holes on the L.O. my have something to do with this air leak issue...not sure. But that will be the last time I have one in my collection. So my next choices are like this....no particular order: Bushman Delta Frost....I keep reading all the hype on these also. Hohner Masterclass (diatonic)....Looks fantasic...something that should last. Suzuki Promaster, or maybe the Humming...which gets great reviews. I really can't say that I have any perticular style as I've never really been exposed to the harmonica till recently. But BLUES is where it's at for the moment. From Lil walter, to Paul Butterfield, and everything else in the middle. So any of you more exp. players out wouldn't mind helping a new guy out that be great! I have to say that if Hohner had replacement reeds for the SP20 then I wouldn't be writting this asking for help. But as it stands now I can't afford to keep purchasing new ones ever other week. Thx guys. Jeff
