Thanks for the tips you passed along. It has been a year or two since I posted my frustration with the 1,4,5, progression. To tell you the truth I never did find any one thing that helped me understand it.
It was a combination of everything I could throw at it...and time.
My first problem was thinking that the progression was I, IV, V. In case there are others that take things a literately as me, it's actually
IIII, IV IV, II, V, IV, II
I simply could not hear it. But wanted it bad enough to keep at it. I listened more than anything. Then listened some more till sick of it, then kept listening. At some point it became redundant.
I would listen to a blues tune and think to myself, "it's going to go 'UP' right here, or down. and it did. The whole time I was still playing and reading everything I could. Once it clicked I realized it was there in everything I was reading and listening to.
I think it was a mental block of some kind. sometimes I have those on topics I desire to learn. I often try too hard.
I do remember the first song I anticipated the chord changes in, Don't know now if it was 12 or 8 bars. Would have to go back and count it out while listening.
It was "sittin on top of the world" by Howling Wolf.
I had just finished a 12 hour shift, got off at 6:00 am. Was driving thru Dallas area on loop 12, south. Pissed off, wasn't getting it, bout ready to throw my harps out the window. and I felt the progression and knew where it was going next. and I got there at the same.
The music took on what seemed like a third dimension, I was not listening to come out of the speakers, I was inside the music, making a contribution.
I know that sounds like I'm on drugs, or was, but that is what it felt like...Dude! I didn't give up and it soaked in. Felt like giving up but didn't
I don't know if you're a guitar player or not, but I hope this helps.
I started out as a guitar player who could play lots of chords, but didn't understand what "one, four, five" was.
Jon Gindick's book "Country and Blues Harmonica for the Musically Hopeless" rescued me both as an ignorant guitar player and as a frustrated harmonica player.
Back in early 1980's, there were books about blues harmonica playing out there, with lots of cool photos of all the blues harmonica legends - but left me frustrated because I couldn't get the technique of bending, but also could not understand what the heck "one, four, five" was.
(It's frustrating and hard to learn something when don't have a teacher, or a helpful, friendly musician who is willing to take time out and show you a very basic thing about music.)
Jon's book had a cartoon guy who counted "one, four, five" on his own hand, and that simple illustration helped me understand both as a guitar player and as a harmonica player!
Soon, I was jamming alongside some incredible blues and rock guitar players and had you been there at the time, you might have laughed watching me look at my hand and started counting after someone said, "Let's play 12 bar blues in the Key of A!".
If you've got Jon's book "Rock n' Blues Harmonica" book, read pages 11 to 16, as Jon explains the eight notes (of the Western Scale): A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A.
Jon has a drawing/illustration of water glasses showing the C Major scale.
Michael, my tip to you is to buy an inexpensive but playable acoustic guitar. You can even buy a decent playable beginner's guitar at Sam Ash, Guitar Center, etc. or your local music store for $99.00 bucks.
I would recommend your ceiling be $125.00 dollars and don't buy a more expensive guitar (unless you want to).
I would recommend you ask an experienced guitar player to go along with you, whether it's at a yard sale or at your local music store.
Many a harmonica player, as Jon Gindick and others can tell you - has inadvertantly become guitar players. Learning to play guitar and harmonica with a harmonica rack is fun and takes some getting used to.
Definitely seek out a guitar player who can teach you, or go online and find out what these two things are:
1. What is a whole step on the guitar? (Which is two frets.) 2. What is a half step on the guitar? (Which is one fret.)
Find a diagram online of the guitar tuning of the open strings which are:
1-E 2-B 3-G 4-D 5-A 6-E
(The thinner the string the higher the pitch. The fatter the string the lower the pitch. Look at an electric bass strings versus an electric guitar and you'll see how much more fatter the electric bass strings are, because it plays the low end, meaning "bass" notes.)
Go back to Jon's book page 17 and take a look at his drinking glasses he uses to illustrate the C Major scale. If you count out from 1 to 4, you'll see it is F. The 5th is G.
C D E F G A B C 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
W W H W W W H
Let me show you this on the the 2nd string on the guitar. The 2nd string, B, is played open, your starting note C is played on the first fret and the octave 8th note (think of "octopus","octogon) is played on the 13th fret after the double dots on the 12 fret on the fretboard:
Use the dots above, on the fretboard to guide you to help you find the notes.
If you bought a cheap, but playable acoustic guitar and learned where the notes are on the 6th and 5th strings and then watched the guitar player's hand as he either plays bar chords or open chords, you would understand what he's playing if you get lost playing - I, IV, V (one, four, five) and make a quick recovery and jump back in on top of the chord the guitarist is playing.
I'd recommend you learn what a "turnaround" riff is and sounds like from either a guitar player and/or a bass player.
Anytime, I'd get lost (when I first started out playing blues harmonica onstage at a jam), or when I momentarily get lost these days, when I hear that "turnaround" riff played by the bass player, keyboard player or guitar player - I'd always know to start back at "one".
I hope this helps Michael. The cool thing about learning music, it will open your eyes and ears to what other instrumentalists (including singers and drummers) are doing around you! You can't help but be curious to watch what they're doing, and hopefully learn and appreciate what they're doing to contribute to the overall sound.
There's nothing worse than seeing and hearing a guitar player laying down a screaming guitar solo while the vocalist is singing her solo!
The main thing I'd recommend is find a patient, cool guitar player in your area to learn what one, four, five is on the guitar.
When you get to the point where you can recognize what fret the bass player is fingering, you automatically know what chord he's on, and hopefully you'll know the right chord or harp riff to lay down alongside it.
Again, check out any of the numerous guitar websites and maybe even visit your local public library and check out a basic blues guitar book to find out what "one, four, five" is on the fretboard using chords. It couldn't hurt.
One last thing: I'd recommend you continue jamming alongside a sound recording and listen to that one song until you're almost sick of hearing it - and then one day as you pick up the harp, you'll be surprised and amazed as you play alongside the chords the guitarist is playing!
I did this with the song "Roadhouse Blues" by the Doors one day, many many years ago and nearly shouted for joy as I finally got the first four notes of the harmonica riff! (I think I played that song nearly a 40 times a day for two weeks until I finally got it.)
Again, I hope this helps. If you can use this, use it. If not, don't. One thing is certain, if you hang around more experienced musicians who are willing to teach you, you'll go up a notch. If you hang around those on the same level, you won't grow and you'll stagnate together, and if you teach someone who knows less than you do - you'll become a teacher to them and cement your own foundation (of what you already know) in the process.
Keep on harpin' Michael! Be patient with yourself!
-- Edited by onenoteblues on Monday 24th of May 2010 06:20:23 AM
-- Edited by onenoteblues on Monday 24th of May 2010 07:32:09 AM
-- Edited by onenoteblues on Monday 24th of May 2010 07:39:33 AM
man go to coast to coast music .com look for 12 bar blues start playing 123d for 4 bars thats your 1 chord play 123b for2 bars thats your iv chord then 123d for 2 bars thats your i again then 1234d for 1 bar thats your v chord then 123b thats your iv chord then 123d for 2 . 12 blues i iv v progression basic. hope this helps.
Not been a full two months since I first posted my frustration with the I-IV-V chord progression. I can feel the progression in many songs now. (not all) but many. I bring this up in hopes of encouraging others that may be having trouble with the same thing. It's kind of like when I was learning to drive a truck with a standard transmission. Push the gas while you ease out the clutch...jerk...jerk...jerk...STALL...damn! Then at some point I got to a place where I could carry on a conversation, listen to the radio and run through all the gears with a cup of coffee in my hand. I'm not there yet with the I-IV-V but it's getting better. If you are having trouble with this, don't give up. Michael
That's the thing..if you play/follow a melody you're in a pretty "safe" area, but if you follow the rhytem of the song (what is often the case when adding harp to a (blues) song) you need to know the chords and when they are changing... looks like you're doing all right...have fun with it...otherwise it's not worth doing it...
RIZDRAVER, Your right about putting the time, and lots of it. It's amazing to me how many songs one can play and play well, and have no need to understand chord progressions. It limits the harmonica player to constant solos or playing with another musician that understands the chord progressions and is always willing to join in on songs I know. A rather selfish expectation. Understanding the chord progressions will allow me to improvise on songs I don't know, and at least make some contribution to the piece until I can learn it better. A much better prosprect for playing with others. Dutch is right too about "have fun with it". If I didn't enjoy the challange, there is no way I would put in the time it takes. Michael
Thank you for your support Dutch. You'r in Japan, right? That means I have people all over the world pulling for me! Pretty cool. It did help to say it out loud. Thank you for your help. ... Michael
Way to go Micheal, just stick it it and you'll be allright. You will get an ear for what sounds good where. (especially if you noodle along with cd's or backtracks) I'm also still working on it , but I'm making progress and I make sure that it is fun.....
An instructor in art school would always say to me "there are 10,000 bad drawings in you - might as well get them out now."
The same thing applies to the harmonica. You simply have to sound horrible for a while. Putting it off and hoping that time will somehow resolve the issues never works. You just have to get the right materials, figure out the goals you're trying to achieve and then put in the time - and lots of it.
We all totally sucked at one point. And many of us still kind of do! : )
I know the Romans didn't have anything to do with the blues, I was just kind of goofing around and trying to lighten the mood on a topic that has not come easy for me. The last two days I have been listening to the progression with no reguard for the insterments that are making it happen. Something is starting to sink in. I started playing along with some random CDs. I butchered a lot of the riffs but started nailing the root notes, on time, most of the time. That will only get better. Dutch is right, It's amazing how far off base you can be with a lot of notes as long as you nail the root notes at the right time. There is more room to move around in there than I thought. And I'm OK with butchered riffs right now. My objective is to feel the progression and puncuate at the right time with the right notes/chords. I don't know if I have ever sounded worse, and felt better about it. Thanks guys. Michael
The (roman) numbers aren't important at all. The primary thing you should be studying is what the root notes of each chord are. As long as you repeatedly emphasize the root note during each of the three chords in blues, it will feel like you're following the traditional 12 bar blues progression. Jason Ricci has some great lessons on this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eR1zbVkfc78
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bbgio8SxDQU
This is the main thing you must learn. Mastering root notes are *the key* to improvising and playing a 12 bar blues.
Part of my problem with the I-IV-V can be placed at the feet of the Romans! Great architecturue, advanced civilization, but thank God their numbering system never cought on. V=5, I=1. if the I is to the left of the V you subtract. If its to the right you add. There are even Xs and Ls in the mix. My head is smokin from the math before I even get to the 2d. If we had been required to do long division with this system, I think it would have taken me longer than 6 years to finish high school. And Dutch thinks HE is hard headed? Michael
I know exactly where you're coming from. There's a HUGE difference between knowing where the chord changes are and being able to *play* through the chord changes. Everything fell into place when I watched Gussow's "riffing through the changes" videos.
If it makes you feel better, It took awhile before I understood the glasses samples, and even more to understand the concept of the I-IV-V progression. And although I sort of understood the concept, I couldn't use or recognize it in an actual song (we are talking about a 3 year time span here) But I did get Adam's I-IV-V explanation in 1 shot and I'm able to recognize it, follow it and adjust my playing to it. So lots of Jon's material makes a lot more sense to me now. Just a different approach, but than again, we are all different so various ways to explain the same thing are good and in my case (no musical background and a fear of technical explanations) a welcome thing... Just make sure you're on time for your date on 2. (and of course on 4D and 4B for the other chords)
I said last time that the 2d is the same note as the 5d. That is not correct. It's the 2d and 6b. You say that as long as you end on the 2d and "on time" it all works out. That is good to know. Kind of like, I left home and may have made some misteaks, but if I can just get back to my baby on time, (2d) it will all be OK.? I'm sure your right about Jon being OK with the other video. But this whole thing has got kind of personal between me and the I-IV-V. The rock-n-blues examples with the tea glasses is as close as anything I have understood, in print. I have more information than is needed to get this. I too am hardheaded about learning some things. But I dug in my heals, got my jaw tight and I ain't backing down till I get this!....could be that I could lighten up some too. Thank you for your help Dutch. Michael
To express the I chord ENDING on the 2 draw is the most important (not where you start) You can actually fiddling your way down from for example the 6 blow, making "mistakes" on the way, but ending at the right time on the 2 draw and it still sounds good. HOW you get there (2 draw) is not that important, GETTING there on time is... I do suggest though that you check Adam's vid too,...yeah, I know, this is Jon's site, but Adam also teaches at Jon's JamCamps and I'm pretty sure that Jon is ok with me suggesting this.... Actually, because of Adam's explanations, parts of Jon's Rock & Blues book that I didn't really understood or thought I didn't need, now got new life and I understand those parts now and they are opening new doors for me.... ( I'm kind of thick-headed when it comes to learning an instrument)
Thanks Dutch, I do know what you are talking about with the 1,2,3,4-2,2,3,4 and changing your voice to match the chord changes. I think I am right on the verge of getting this thing. I just watched one of Jons videos on the subject, 3 times. He's wearing a black T- shirt that says "quit work, make music!" The one chord is 1,2,3,4 draw but you can use the 2 draw alone to express it. It's the root note of the 1 chord, right? So if the music is in the 1 chord, there are three ways you can go. 1. the one chord (1,2,3,4 draw) 2. the 2 draw alone, bent and or not bent 3. a riff (this one I'm not sure about) should it start on two draw, end on 2 draw or just be the dominant note in the riff? another option that I have heard, is to start on the 1,2,3,4 draw, then narrow your mouth down to the 2 draw alone then back to the chord. Or, the 5 draw is the same note, just an octive higher, right? Come to think of it there are a lot more than 3. Fully understanding the chord progression is the key to the next level of harp playing for me. It helps a lot to know that there was a time when you struggled with this same issue Dutch. I was starting to think I was the only one. I can tell by the way you play you made it past it. Thank you, Michael
I used Adam Gussow's advice (see his vid on youtube) and spend time, counting with my favourite Blues CD's. 1,2,3,4 - 2,2,3,4 - 3,2,3,4 - 4,2,3,4 - 5,2,3,4 etc. and when changing chords I also change the pitch/sound of my voice to match the chords (on 5,2,3,4 (IV chord) 7,2,3,4 (I chord) 9,2,3,4 (V chord) 10,2,3,4 (IV chord) and 11,2,3,4 (I chord) So I sang along with (most) songs using 1,2,3,4 2,3,4,5 etc while adjusting at the changes. Mind you, it doesn't work for every song, but it does for the most of them. Now when I listen to a song and a change is coming, in my head I hear 7,2,3,4 or 9,2,3,4 with the pitch that goes with the chord... If my explanation doesn't make much sense (and that is very good possible) check out Adam's tutorial on youtube (I had a hard time for 3 years to figure it out, but counting along WITH adjusting your voice for each chord, did wonders for me and I got it down within 2 days)
The MAIN thing is not to only LISTEN but ACTUALLY GOING THRU THE CHORDS ACTIVELY ps once you've got it, you should trying to apply Jon's lessons to "mold" your riff to the chords (I'm sure you know which lessons I'm talking about...
Dont have this figured out yet but I think Im on the right track. I noticed I was listening the wrong way. I would listen to the harp in a song with "audio tunnel vision". Was that a 2D, 3D,4D, 4B, 4D, 4B, 3D, 2D, 1D 1D? ( nice riff by the way) My point is, I tend to pick apart the harp mechanics and not listen to the bigger picture. I now spend time each day listening to the 12 bar progression in songs that don't have harmonica. A short time back I joined the video harp club, one of the many lessons is a rather extensive, easy to follow instructional video about "open G tuning". A guitar playing method that I can learn. Playing the chord changes on a different insterment will give me another way to look at the same issue. Also on the harp club, I counted five videos that deal with the I-IV-V. Study the tapes, learn some guitar and change the way I listen. Am I the only one that is having trouble getting this to sink in? or had trouble in the past? Any tips? Michael
OK, I'll just come right out and say it. The whole I-IV-V chord progression just isn't sinking in. It's not for lack of instruction. I have hours of video and a stack of books ten inches high. When I learn a song, I know where the chord changes are because I play it so many times. And I can anticipate them in some songs, some of the time. But it's not a part of me yet. I have it in my head but not in my gut... I will get it, I just dont have it yet and thought it might help to say it out loud.
